HI,
I have a '67 SV which is being nursed back to some level of reliability. Recently I had problems with the starter 'sticking' in engaged position, so out it came, bendix was fine as was flywheel. I had it rebuilt since it was out anyway and on bench test its fine (mind you it was also fine on the bench when it came out)

The problem is it still sticks 9 times out of 10. I have bypassed the entire electrical system just to test and even with a good battery jumped directly to the starter no go.

I noticed then that it was almost impossible to turn the engine by hand. Am I correct in thinking you should be able to turn the crank by hand at least an inch or two?

Anyway, If I roll the car she starts no problem and seems to run fine , oil pressure is fine, temp is fine. If I then check the crank it is free and if I stick in the starter...off she goes no problem. What it is beginning to look like to me is that depending on where the engine comes to rest, the inertia required to turn it with the starter exceeds its capability, starter fires engages and sticks

What I need to know is what is the 'normal behaviour of 'the engine and am I looking at an impending disaster:)? could I be looking at a oil pump problem or ?? to be honest I'm stumped..I'd appreciate any assistance

Cheers

Philip

I cant be sure what the problem is, but I can shed some light on a couple of things for you.

Turning over then engine by hand depends on where you are turning from, but it is never easy with the plugs fitted as you are working against the compression pressure in the cylinders; at cranking speeds this is about 150 psi. A normal starter, of course will cope with this as that's what its designed to do, but if it is jamming, you probably have an alignment problem. The gears must mesh correctly, and not be too close or too far apart. If, for some reason they are badly out of line they can jam. If you look closely at the flywheel you may find some evidence of where the gears have been sticking; that might tell you more about whats going on (is it sticking on the peaks of the teeth, or is it much too far into mesh.

Is the starter fitted on the correct side of the bell housing? I am not sure if this is possible on the Sunbeam engines.

Is it possible you have the wrong starter or wrong flywheel tooth size?

Was the starter OK before, and then it just started to play up?

I am a bit puzzled why you are worried about the oil pump as there is no way that can affect the starting. Even if there was something causing your engine to jam, it would only stall the starter motor, not jam it.

I'm well puzzled too:)
The starter is in the way it came out. I don't think its possible to get it wrong but I'm positive it is in right. The bendix gearing is undamaged as is the flywheel, I have checked the part I can see every time I've had it out which is a lot! though perhaps there is a damaged tooth, however I would expect that to be visible when I remove the starter as that where it would have stuck?
Its the same starter (Lucas) as was in it when I got it and it only recently started doing this

One other hint that may help is that sometimes it goes in and cranks though really really slowly like the battery is dead. So I got a discharge tester and checked the battery (OK), swapped the battery no difference, bypassed all of the wiring right to the starter by connecting it directly to a battery with a set of jump leads (no difference)

The plugs in are and I'm not big enough to turn the engine to overcome the compression but I observed that now I can (maybe an inch or so in either direction until the compression builds up past my muscle strength) however when the starter fails and then I try to turn it I cannot budge it, I have to roll it in gear to free it. This is why I began to think lubrication only I have no idea what the symptoms of a seized/failing oil pump would be only that ignoring them is probably not a good idea

Right now I just swapped out the solenoid even though I've bypassed it when testing and I think its fine but time to clutch at straws:)

I'm going to change the oil in it now..just for the hell of it, its due anyway.

I'll have a look at alignment. There are only two bolts holding the starter in and it sits into a groove which I suppose is designed not to allow play in positioning but worth a look. One other possibility is the flywheel is warped? but isn't that a casting and if it was off balance wouldnt the car shake itself asunder? I just don't know.

The only other possibility I suppose is that the starter simply isn't OK although the autoelec place that rebuilt it are adamant it was redone tested and passed.

I suppose this is the fun of it? any other possibilities?

Thanks for responding I appreciate the help!

Cheers

Philip

I agree with the replies already provided:
- Can't be the oil pump unless its drive gears were jammed - but then it wouldn't run at all.
- It is very difficult to turn the engine by hand by pulling on the fan belt, but it should not be 'impossible' with the starting handle. Some effort required but you should be able to turn the engine over.
- You say it engages and sticks. Do you mean that the engine starts but the bendix is not then thrown out? If so, the problem is definitely the bendix thread. If you mean that it just goes into engagement but doesn't turn, then either the engine really is too 'stiff' or the motor is not trying hard enough. You have tried by-passing the positive feed, but what about the earth? There is a braided strap across the rear gearbox mount. If this isn't properly clean at both ends where it attaches, you won't get the low resistance needed to carry the amps.
- I can't think of a reason why an engine should be stiff sometimes but then run fine later. Maybe rust in the cylinders that the rings have not cleared? If it always sticks at 90 degrees before or after TDC this could be the explanation. The TDC notch in the pulley would then be a quarter turn from the static marks on the timing cover.

Hi, thanks for the replies.

I bypassed the rest of the cars electric by taking the battery out and putting it next to the car I then used a set of jump leads to jump directly to the +ve and earthed directly to the chassis where the starter is attached

It is a bit inconsistent in behaviour, mainly the bendix flys in engages but doesn't turn the engine and doesnt come out. I am assuming that when it engages that it actually starts to turn and creates a friction bind against the flywheel. Since there is no momentum left to disengage there it stay.

Other times it will engage and turn the engine but rather like the battery is dead, not enough speed to start. It then disengages properly

and other times (about 1 in 10) it will start immediately

When I had the starter out I fired it up on the bench. the bendix immediately wound to the engage position and then returned after about 2-3 seconds which is I think normal behaviour?

One thing which I didnt mention but now may be relevant. I have a leaky clutch cylinder which I have to get to which means sometimes i have to pump the clutch to get a gear (next on my list), however I have always started in neutral so I cant see it running against part engaged clutch

The other thing is about 3 weeks ago I had the car in a garage to swap out the gearbox, mine has some wear in 3rd. As it turned out the gearbox replacement they ordered was the wrong one (after waiting for months to get it) so they put the old box back in. Mind yopu when I collected it and drove away it was fine but then again It would only have been started maybe half a dozen times since then before developingthis problem

Question is, since both these operations involve the bell housing and its contents I am wondering is the problem there. However with the car in neutral I cant see how this may be??? Is there a possibility that some assembly in this housing may be incorrectly refitted? I don't have a lift or pit so will have to bring it somewhere to get the housing off and I don't want to do it without a suspect:)

Yesterday, I replaced the solenoid and wiring (been meaning to do the wiring for ages anyway) no change. I took the car for a run, about 10 miles or so, runs like a dream, no funny noises, temp problems, pressure problem, smoke, sludge in oil, nothing. But it still will not start with the starter and I'm way out of ideas?

Thanks for all the pointers, my experience is limited so I appreciate them, mind you I know a lot more about starters than I did a week ago:)

Philip

If the starter jams sometimes, and needs to be freed up you must have an alignment problem. Also as it only turns slowly when it does not stick, this backs up the idea that it is not properly aligned, ie the gears are probably binding and are too closely meshed, but I cant think how this has happened.

I do think it has something to do with the fact that it started happening after you had the gearbox changed.

Hi,

Thanks for post, I tend to agree, given I have tried absolutely everything I can think and has been suggested except to remove the housing and check the flywheel/gearbox/clutch assemblies.

There doesn't seem to be any way of adjusting the approach angle of the starter spindle other than putting in a washer to tilt it slightly away from the flywheen which is rather treating the symptom and not the disease which I want to avoid, nothing for it then but to get the bell housing off and take a look. I'll find a local garage with a lift to do it. Will let you know how that works out and what the resolution is (I hope) just in case other members come across it. Unfortunately the guy who swopped the box out is 160 miles away still we'll have words if it turns out the gearbox was refitted incorrectly:)

Thanks again!!

Philip

I see two possibilities from all this:
1. The starter is defective - not producing the power to turn the engine. If you try it with lights on and they DON'T dim a lot, then the motor isn't taking (or maybe getting) enough current. If the lights do dim a lot, maybe the battery isn't up to it (try jump leads), or the motor has a short circuit.
2. Something happened when the gearbox was changed. There are two tubular dowels which ensure the bell housing is properly centred. Look at the joint with the engine. If it doesn't meet all the way round, the dowels may not be engaged. This would misalign both the starter and the gearbox - and there could be excessive friction, even in neutral.
I agree that the leaky clutch is irrelevant.

Hi,

I'd meant to do this for quite a while but only now got to it:) The starter had the wrong number of teeth. At some point it had been replaced and a few sheets of gasket inserted on one side to 'offset' the starter from the flywheel so it would engage (not terribly accurately). When I got it rebuilt, I missed this and hence it would engage and jam. Solution..get the right one, which my mechanic neighbout found buried under the "will clear out someday" pile in his yard.

Thanks to all respondents..wont get caught with that one again!!

Philip

Glad it's sorted. I must admit that I have never heard of a case like this and would never have thought of it. But next time......